Paying the Price of Ignorance

17 years ago, the world stood by as an estimated number of 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus were mass slaughtered by the exteremist Hutus in Rwanda. What is now known as a genocide, was very much debatable back then when the ordeal happened. The international community, who had in their disposal the power to intervene and act, unfortunately were too ignorant to do so and it inevitably led to the gruesome epilogue that we have bitterly learned today.

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17 years ago, the world stood by as an estimated number of 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus were mass slaughtered by the exteremist Hutus in Rwanda. What is now known as a genocide, was very much debatable back then when the ordeal happened. The international community, who had in their disposal the power to intervene and act, unfortunately were too ignorant to do so and it inevitably led to the gruesome epilogue that we have bitterly learned today.

I was too young to learn what happened in 1994 when the Rwandan genocide happened, thus I am fortunate that my school arranged a 17 year commemoration of the Rwandan genocide, by showing the documentary titled “Ghosts of Rwanda“.

The whole room was silenced after the movie, the mood was sombre, and some were puzzled on how did the whole calamity started in the first place.

Did it start from hatred? If it did, how can human beings, whom I believe are capable of empathy and compassion, be fully consumed by it?

Did it start from a blinded belief of the Hutu Power? Hutus believed that Tutsis will enslave them if they were in power, thus they believed that what is needed to “save Rwanda” was to eliminate all the Tutsis.

If it were the combination of hatred and blinded belief, how come nobody said “stop”?

How come nobody with their sound mind stopped the spread of this hatred and illogical belief?

Much of the lead up to this puzzle is explained in the documentary and there are plenty of information out there on the Rwandan Genocide. My thought piece here is to reflect on what happens when a number of good people just stood by in the face of wrongdoings.

It’s excruciating to see people die, just because they’re different than you.

Sometimes you would worry about minuscule things in life, well, if you were a Tutsi back then you’d be happy if you were still alive.

Same thing if you’re an Ahmadi in Indonesia now. If you believe in pluralism; if you’re a moderate; if you  believe that tolerance should prevail over extremism. Who’s going to protect you if such extremists are around and nobody’s there to stop them?

The spread of hatred and intolerance will stop if your acts and words show that you stand up and say that you’re against them. The state, whose job is also to protect its people, should also show their stance and prove that this is not a place for those who believes in the acts of violence. After all, there is much to pay if ignorance persists.

61 thoughts on “Paying the Price of Ignorance”

  1. Indonesian Muslims, as a whole, have been remarkably tolerant of the treatment and violence meted out to the Ahmadi community over a span of several years. Imagine this scenario: Muslims are a minority, and the majority group bans the worship of Islam and engages in violence against Muslims. Is this how you would like to be treated? Treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.

    In Indonesia Muslims are the majority. Nevertheless they–the mainstream and official position regarding Ahmadiyah–do not hold the moral higher ground on this issue. A clear example of how religion provides justification for immoral, objectionable (and illegal) behavior.

    1. I think this is still related to our discussion in my other blog post here: http://imo.thejakartapost.com/nrg07/2011/02/25/on-the-point-of-religious-tolerance/

      I agree with you that we should treat others as you yourself would like to be treated. I’ve been in places where Muslims are a minority, and it’s not comfortable. Learning from that experience, that’s why when I’m back in Indonesia I feel like I should never badly treat the minorities because I know how horrible it is.

      I just wish that sometimes people would see the bigger picture.

    2. imagine this, einstein. you are in petamburan and should you not know where it is, look at the map. you will find that the mosques are actually outnumbered by the churches; you will see that there are three churches and only two mosques. do you think such a thing is possible up there in Netherlands? and do you think we are clamorous about it? hell no.

      petamburan is inhibited by the most arab-descendants; have you ever heard the news on TV that the churches or the bibles have been burned there?

      you guys make me want to vomit, you know that? i mean here you are, believing yourselves to already have had the hollier-than-thou attitude and yet you have not been to petamburan for petamburan is the quintessence of the tail wagging the dog. and we can live with it; it ain’t no big deal for we are not clamorous like you for we are nothing like you.

  2. You know, living side-by-side with people who have different beliefs is easier said than done. The line between respecting their differences with ours and to mock them is pretty thin here. I was very close to express my anger towards an Islamic organization for being so stupid, but luckily there were people who already express theirs and when I see it, I dislike it.

    In here, different people with different point of view deserves to be insulted, and frankly I don’t know how to stop it. Because nobody realize it.

  3. how can you expect people to see bigger picture, if you can not see one yourself? just like the blogger down here; she has been more than craven to have posted her blog about the junk movie/? although she had had not watched it herself. bizarre, ain’t it?

    i assume that you are a muslim; the only problem is that islam is just a word on your ID card.

    maybe you do not know that there are no other prophets after Mohammed or maybe you are just too oblivious to accept that fact?

    1. My friend, my faith teaches me to have good relationship with my God and have good relationship with others. When people speak of religion, and often bicker about it, in the end they forget about doing good to others and to do good for God itself.

      My bigger picture and yours might be different, if you care to elaborate what that is, I’m willing to listen.

      The point of tension between the Ahmadis and Muslims, among others, is how the Ahmadis acknowledge Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet while the Koran teaches us that Muhammad is the last prophet. I believe in the the latter, while Ahmadis believes in the former. From my readings, I am aware that if Ahmadis don’t call themselves as Muslims or Islam, this might help to ease the tensions.

      I do not have the solution to solve the root of this problem, but what I do know is that these differences does not justify the acts of violence that is being done upon the Ahmadis.

      I believe in engagement and discussion, I’m willing to hear about the differences of opinion, but I do not attest personal attacks to the person you are having a debate with.

      1. my friend, it is you, who want others to see the bigger picture in the first place. so since you have been able to see it first, it is just a normal thing for me to ask you to explain in great length what the bigger picture is as you want people to see.

        and you did read it correctly that if they are willing to stop to call themselves islam, the friction stops right here. well, i can say that you think wrong, should you say that it is actually an act of violence towards those people but a retributive action to be more exact.

        it is your own conclusion to regard it as an attack for it is not; it is just your soft and tender personality, which concludes you to.

        and for your information, i do not feel comfortable too to know that you actually want others to have the same thing as you do like that bigger picture of yours.

      2. Access, to answer the question of which big picture I am referring to, this video on ’empathic civilization’ will be the essence of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g

        I did not say that I necessarily want others to have the same vision as mine, but providing an idea of what this vision entails is indeed something to consider about. I am certainly willing to discuss, as the end of the video also suggest to do so.

        I fear that your line of thinking on the acts towards the Ahmadis are a part of retributive action – that they deserve the treatment because they believe Muhammad is not the last prophet – is dangerous. We are not built as a society who take vengeance and takes matters into our own hands.

        If you are truly a believer, the ultimate justice should be given by God and not by mere humans. If God is so great, why would humans – who have no authority to judge upon other humans – act on behalf of God to punish others who are different?

      3. so, einstein, do you think that we do not have an empathy towards others? think again, einstein.

        did you not know that we actually held a ‘celebration’ for japan the other day? “indonesia for japan” “indonesia’s sympathy for japan”
        come on…what were you thinking?

        we ARE an extended family; that is why we have to do something to our ahmadiyah brothers and sisters, who have been disoriented.

        do you think the western countries have empathy when they said they refused to apologize to libyan civilians, who have been mistakenly recognized as their bombing targets? think again, einstein.

        you guys are miserable as far as i am concerned.
        and by the way, the video has not actually finished. nice animation, though.

  4. In here, different people with different point of view deserves to be insulted, and frankly I don’t know how to stop it. Because nobody realize it.

    people with different point of view from whose point of view? people like yours? haha you are making me laugh here but i ain’t laughing, my dear blogger.

    and frankly I don’t know how to stop it

    then do not; who are you to stop it? you are nobody, my dear blogger

    Because nobody realize it.

    nobody but you? again you are making me laugh here but i ain’t laughing, my dear blogger. you and your blogs are the laughingstocks and the biggest mistakes in the history of IMO.

  5. Always think that it’s terribly wrong to attack and do horrible things to someone, just because they did not embrace the same belief. And it does very strange -and silly- when people say the existence of different beliefs is a threat.
    I mean, If you believe that your religion, your God, your faith, it’s a whole package of undeniable truth; the one that will save you in life after death and the judgment day, why bother?

    And i agree that the state must do something before those irrational bigots think they can do more violence and told everyone that it’s God’s will, just because they said so, to justify the horror. But the ugly truth, as we all may know, Indonesian government don’t put attention so much to handle this problem. Not for now.
    Luckily, some people formed @bebasmerdeka to spread the thoughts about tolerance and pluralism as an effort to prevent the condition from getting worse. Hopefully it would word. Maybe you should check its twitter account sometimes…

    Nice post, by the way 🙂

    1. Hi, thanks for taking the time to read it. I will make sure that I check their twitter account.

    2. it makes me sad to know that you are muslim by judging from your avatar that you are wearing a headscarf (are you?) and yet you are in favor of ahmadiyah. or maybe you are an ahmadiyah believer? do not be a sinner

  6. and it is also wrong to mismatch the retributive action in this issue with who we are and i sincerely believe that you understand what it means.

    we were forced to take matters into our own hands for simply there is no government here in this so-called nation, no? for we have been telling the so-called government that this particular sect should be disavowed and banned for good but to no avail.

    only then we were forced to do things our way – our way or the highway.

    it is your own self-denial to the mainstream of islam which is way too hazardous to the majority for also thinking that it is OK to believe that there is still a prophet after Mohammed SAW.

    and i AM a true believer and God has said that it is allowed to fight back when you are fought and that is my answer to your prayer – we are fought to know that they still use the grand term ‘islam’ to their so-called religion;therefore, we fight back for it is allowed.

    ahmadiyah people should not have the right to live in any forms whatsoever here; they should be disavowed and banned from practicing it and they should be forced with any means necessary to re-embrace the mainstream of islam or they invent a brand-new religion. that is just the way it is.

    P.S.

    i will give comments about the video later for i am having a bad connection now for the video lasts for 10 minutes or so and the video runs intermittently in my current condition.

  7. Ahmadiyyah should be banned because it is blatantly blaspheming Islam.
    It is like claiming you’re an Indonesian but u’re raising Free Papua Movement Flag (Bintang kejora flag). If we fought against and declared FPM illegal, why not doing the same thing to Ahmadiyyah?

    The answer is coz Pak Beye’s regime fear the anger of US govt and its allies, who are known as beacon of pluralism, democracy, Human rights, tolerance, and all values that they pretend they stand for but at the same time they violate them all, and we know it, but we’re defenseless.

    Islam is now under massive attack as the only religion which is keep on growing at an unassailable pace all over the world. This growing number of moslem is fueled by the growing apathy and disillusionment of modern people towards Vatican and the rising popularity in post-9/11 period. Now, if u traced back the history of Ahmadiyyah, It is a religion that the British created and used to divide and rule the Indian moslems, and their “prophet” was cursed by God with a horrible illness ,kept in isolation by his disciples, and he died in a toilet while , he was allegedly, “Trying to communicate with God”. (Feel free to discuss Ahmadiyyah here)

    Islam may be divided in sects, like sunni, shiite, wahabi and salafi, but none of these sects associate any entity with Allah.SWT, nor Claim any new prophet after Muhammad.SAW, nor dispute the authenticity of the Quran. Why? coz these sects are divided by either political or interpretations of Quran and Hadith, not by Aqidah, not by the fundamentals of Islam.

    Therefore, for Ahmadiyyah to claim Mirza Ghulam as a prophet and to claim they profess Islam hence,moslems, is obviously a blatant blasphemy of Islam and an attempt to bring true Moslems to infidelity. At last, We shall be prepared for other attacks as the Govt seem to be exploiting the issue to justify the implementation of Intelligence Laws which is now being discussed in DPR.

    Enjoy Indonesia, Stay positive,!:>

  8. Access, micspeak, if I can synthesize both of your replies:

    If we step back a bit out of this debate, it would be to look at whether the state do have an authority in banning the practices of Ahmadiyya, or practices of other religion as a matter of fact. Indonesia claims to be secular, but with the presence of the Ministry of Religious Affairs, in practice we do know that this is not true.

    In retrospect, the issuance of the joint decree between the Ministry of Religious Affairs, Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Attorney General on Ahmadiyya in 2008 signals that the state acknowledges that Ahmadiyaa is not a part of Islam. The state asks Ahmadis in Indonesia to stop spreading their teaching that distorts the fundamentals of Islam, or Aqidah, such as acknowledging that there is another prophet after Muhammad. The state also asks, in that joint decree, that every citizen should do their part to not conduct any acts of violence towards the Ahmadis.

    Thus, any Ahmadis who still claim that they’re Muslims and any citizens who inflict violence towards the Ahmadis, are both subject to the law and can be persecuted according to it.

    You can read the joint decree here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/indonesian/news/story/2008/06/080609_ahmadiyah.shtml

    Based on this decree, I think we agree on this point that lack of inaction from the state to implement their own policy, either to persecute Ahmadis that claims that they’re Muslims and other citizens who lynches the Ahmadis, are indeed problematic.

    Since the Indonesian government fears the Islamic Ummah in Indonesia, which comprises 88% of the population, in the end, yielded to the demands of the mainstream Islam to ban Ahmadiyya through this decree.

    The broader debate, however, which I know international scholars have been debating about: who speaks on behalf of the Islam? Who has the authority to say what is Islam and what is not Islam?

    1. you do not think that the state does not have the authority to ban ahmadiyah practice? sure it does; that is what the state is for in the first place. come on…what were you thinking? get real…and this country never claims to be secular. do not jump to any conclusions that easy. and yes, ahmadiyah is not a part of islam in forms whatsoever.

      i personally believe that you are aware that this administration is a flaccid one; therefore, it should not be regarded as as the true bastion to defend the mainstream of islam. i myself never believe in this such a flaccid administration, never have and never will. consequently, we have taken things in our own hands when it comes to this issue.

      and it is a problematic, ain’t no doubt about it for simply like i said earlier that this administraation is flaccid. it should have issued a joint-decree that stated that ahmadiyah should be banned; the followers should be forced by any means necessary to re-embrace the mainstream of islam or else invent a brand-new religion. and not the joint-decree like we all have read before.

      the hell with the international scholars and so far as i am concerned, it is not their business and they should not tamper with this issue, which they have too little knowledge about.

      1. Article 29.2 of the 1945 Indonesian Constitution presently in effect

        “The state shall guarantee freedom to every resident to adhere to their respective religion and to perform their religious duties in accordance with their religion and that faith.”

        I rather think it absurd and perverse to argue that the purpose of the state is to deny its citizens their fundamental, constitutionally-guaranteed rights. Yeah, you know what you’re talking about…

        No need to for international scholars or international human-rights, you are correct. It’s all there in your own constitution. Take that, sport!

      2. yes, that is correct but as long as those perverts continue to consider themselves as islam, the friction shall continue too and i just do not see the light on the other side of the tunnel until they stop calling themselves islam.

        einstein, islam considers that there are no other prophets after Mohammed SAW. therefore, ahmadiyah is not part of islam whatosever. consequently, the religion ahmadiyah does not exist and therefore, does not deserve the acknowledgment from the state.

        think again, chap!

      3. I don’t care what fairy tales you tell yourself, and what illusions and delusions you suffer. That’s none of my business. So long as you follow the law and respect the rights of others, the rights enshrined in your very own constitution, I don’t care how many prophets, which precise prophet you believe in or the minutia of your doctrines.

      4. I don’t care what fairy tales you tell yourself, and what illusions and delusions you suffer. That’s none of my business. So long as you follow the law and respect the rights of others, the rights enshrined in your very own constitution, I don’t care how many prophets, which precise prophet you believe in or the minutia of your doctrines.

        it has been expected for you to say such a thing like that for i have known already right from the start that you do not know what you are talking about here, chap.

        do not tell us what to do, pervert.

        go suck your mommy’s tits instead, boy

  9. You guys are sad. Poor Indonesia. So much religion, so little sense and morality. Just so you know, the world keeps on spinning regardless of your sterile debates, which do nothing but to further isolate Muslims and stigmatize Islam. Good job, guys.

  10. I’m not Moslem, so I would not discuss the issue of dogma.
    What irks me is the way the government intervenes in religious issues as sensitive as dogma, by proclaiming some religious branches as “sects” that should not perform their religious duties in public. Some law-breaking acts of religion-based violence have also been ignored by the authorities – thus, de facto, legalized.
    I believe that a government should never be part of religious authority, especially in a country as diverse as Indonesia. [Vatican is hardly a state – it was created so that the Catholic Church central authority is free from any government.] It starts by pointing fingers at Ahmadis and Shiites. Sooner or later, religious groups will lobby to get their version of faith to be proclaimed the official version. The way the government acts for now, it seems that it bends toward the most vocal groups – probably the govt officials are eager to show that they belong to the orthodox branch of Islam…?
    If the trend continues, it will end in a politically-formulated version of Islam that is most suspicious of different interpretations of Islam and least tolerant of other religions. It is the case of “Vox populi, vox Dei” in its most literal meaning, except that “populi” is simply the strongest voice in the population, and it’s not compatible with any complex societies engaging in democracy.
    By the way, Mauricio, hurling insults is what actually sterilizes a debate. I wonder why you even bother. (no sarcasm)

    1. good, you are not a muslim; so stay away from this issue. what the hell do you know about our belief?

      go post a blog about that singing cop instead.

      1. I believe in freedom of religious practice in Indonesia. I welcome the support of those who, even though they embrace a different faith from mine, believe in my rights – as I witness over and again. I don’t need to be an Ahmadi (even to understand “why they’re wrong”) to understand the feeling of being oppressed. When you think someone deserves suffering for whatever reason, you stop being a human. When you insult those who care, you insult humanity.

      2. even you, i think, do not like those who poke their noses to something they know nothing of, no?

        when you are a parent and you stop short of punishing your children for misbehavior for whatever reason, you become an animal.

        when somebody talks about something they do not have the knowledge of, he/she insults my intelligence.

        like i said go post a blog about that dancing cop or something. who cares?

  11. A reason why most Muslims do not object to the blasphemy inherent in state intervention in and limitation of religion(s) is, predictably, because they are the majority. Were the shoe on the other foot, that is, were they a minority, you can be sure they’d be crying to high heaven, and clamoring for freedom of religion.

    As I’ve argued before, leaving aside the fact that multi-confessionalism is fundamentally a policy of discrimination, multi-confessionalism in the context of Indonesia’s array of religious group relative sizes and ineffective, rogue and corrupt law enforcement, administration of justice and armed forces is a recipe for strife and opens the door for the oppression and repression by the majority of the minorities. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, though.

    1. so, einstein, have you ever heard us clamoring up there in western countries, where muslim is the minority? yawn…yawn…

      i strongly suggest that you have to go to petamburan, einstein; there, you will realize that the churches do outnumber the mosques.

      do you think such a thing is possible up there in the western countries, einstein?

  12. I was referring to access and micfreak earlier whose arguments and positions do more to besmirch and weaken their religion, not to mention their country, more than anything else. So long as people remain more wedded to the texts and doctrines of Semitic peoples from yestermillenia and less about the well-being of human beings of the here and now, religious violence and conflict will continue to plague Indonesia. One reaps what one sows.

    1. weaken? yawn…yawn…do not make me laugh sport for i ain’t laughin’

      are you a muslim yourself, sport? answer me first, do not waste my time. i am waiting

  13. Hey nrg07, loved your post on the Rwandan massacre. If an event like that fails to move us as humans then God help us. It should spur us on to design institutions to ensure this kind of thing doesn’t happen again. Hopefully the state in Indonesia can also be an institution that can rise above the mindless commentary and views made by some in your comments. It’ll take vigilance and bravery from people like you to ensure that the Indonesian state remains democratic and tolerant into the future.

  14. Whether I am a Muslim or not is irrelevant for the matter and arguments at hand. The plain fact is that your position re. Ahmadiyah is immoral and illegal, indeed subversive of the Indonesian state. If Suharto were in power, they would have sent a Ninja Hitam-type squad to take care of the likes of you. Despite your religion’s claims of high culture, morality and civility, the sad fact is that people like you only understand tangan besi. You deserve everything that is coming to you: an Indonesia bogged down in conflict and violence, a religion that is increasingly at odds with the world, reviled precisely due to the attitudes of Muslims like you. Good job once again.

    Go ask your silly questions and peddle your absurdities and insecurities to someone else…

    1. so you are not a muslim after all, why are you talking about a Ninja Hitam-type squad. how old are you, boy?

      go tell your mommy to breastfeed you, boy.

      do not waste my time here.

  15. even you, i think, do not like those who poke their noses to something they know nothing of, no? for you are a long way from home, boy

    when you are a parent and you stop short of punishing your children for misbehavior for whatever reason, you become an animal.

    when somebody talks about something he/she does not have the knowledge of, he/she insults my intelligence.

    like i said go post a blog about that dancing cop or something. who cares?

  16. hey access access 🙂

    firstly, thanks for sharing your opinion in an open forum (although a bit confused because the main discussion should’ve been about the rwandan genocide).

    secondly, i am a moslem so i understand your views about ahmadi believers having fundamental differences with our belief, in particular on mirza ghulam ahmad. and i agree with the opinion that should the ahmadis proclaim themselves as a separate religion, the friction might just stop.

    however, amidst above things in mind, i hope you can respect my different view about the violence toward them as retributive action. i don’t believe that the violence did any justice for them neither for us. looking inward, the incidents cost us friction (even antipathy) among ourselves. isn’t that contra-productive?

    nrg07 stated, the laws has been put in place with regard to this issue. to add this, seeing this as an internal problem within our own society (since they still perceived themselves as part of us), imho it should be complemented with continuous constructive engagement by our ulama. i think it would give greater impact with definitely less costs on our side. i must state though that i’m unsatisfied with our ulama’s leadership in this matter up until now but i maintain my faith that they will lead us (in God’s will) to resolve this matter.

    after all, access access, isn’t our faith supposed to bring peace to this world? with respect to the value and as part of a civilized society, i believe we should give priority to peaceful means in going forward with this issue.

    lastly, i respect your rights to state your mind, i hope you’d do the same in replying every comment in this page. thx 🙂

    1. hey peace,

      you should not be confused (why should you be anyway?) for it is only a makeshift and shoddy analogy as the last-ditch attempt by the writer to vent his affection towards ahmadiyah (read again the second paragraph from the bottom; that is the crux of it).

      good to know that you are a muslim yourself so that you know what you are talking about here. but to make the story short, those perverts will not stop calling themselves as islam, unless we do something about it, no?

      either we force them to re-embrace the mainstream of islam or else they invent a brand-new religion. that is just the way it is and being flaccid does not help at all in this issue, buddy.

  17. I hope i’m not being associated with Access Access here…coz though i do share his belief that Ahmadiyyah should be stopped and banned. I completely disagree with the use of Force to the ahmadis. coz it clearly states in the Quran “Laa Ikraaha fiddeen”..There is no compulsion in religion…

    May this be an enlightenment.:>

    1. i do not think that you should flatter yourself buddy for i too do not want to be associated with you. you mean nothing to me, freak.

  18. i know many people who have similar characteristic with this “access access”, they were educated in public school and went to the university (and probably took a major in English Linguistic, coz i praise your english skill mate), in campus they actively engaged with “fundamentalist” ideology and wuzaaa, you became the man/woman who knows everything even way smarter than Islamic scholars (i know some of them personally) who spent almost their entire life in Pesantren.. but that’s just my personal opinion
    Mate, your insecurity toward pluralism again shows people that you even have no confidence to your own faith, do you think people will be easily converted just because there are more churches than mosque in the area where majority are Moslems? come on, you must be joking on this!!!
    just fyi: i believe God but i don’t engage in any single religion, coz i never get any single call from Him or from our late religious ones that explains to me which belief is in his favor, i believe a harmony and fairness are only able to be prevailed if we take off our religion attributes (just in case you are wondering about my religion)

    1. english linguistic and actively involved in those ‘activities’? wrong answers pal and you can not be said that you can make a living as a fortune-teller for you are simply terrible.

      who are you to judge that i do not have confidence to my own belief when you do not even share the same faith as i do? do not make me laugh for i ain’t laughing – it is a cheap hoax what you have been saying.

      and if you think that i was trying to make you give up your own ‘faith’ by suggesting the place as the holy pilgrimage, you think wrong for i never was. but it is your own imagination/delusion as a result of being a drug user over a period of time that makes you come to such an inference, pal. i never give a shit what your faith is, come on do not flatter yourself, do not be conspicuous pal.

      again, who gives a shit that you do not engage in any religions in any forms whatsoever, pal? and you have just wasted my time talking to you like this for i just hate people who do not know what they are talking about for it insults my intelligence. pure and simple.

      go play with your dog or something, sinner.

      1. hahaha… from the way you show your thoughts, i didn’t see any intelligence could be attributed to you, in fact what i see from you is a person who has no brain at all with a small gut aka insecure always feel threaten (perhaps you should see a psychiatrist, seriously).
        You can even rebut our opinions with a sensible answer in good manner. Hitherto that have similar “single minded-stubbornness” is the Jews-Hardliners, so tell me then what make you differ with them???!!…

        I only know that your group financially got back up by super rich petrodollar? 😉

      2. yeh well maybe i do not think that you deserve my serious thought after all; did you not ever think of that?

        allow me to say something. though. please, do not make any assumptions at all anymore, will ya sherlock? for you are simply lousy! i am telling you the truth.

        go buy a hamster if you want to talk to someone for i know you are very lonely deep inside.

  19. “O you who have attained to faith! It is [but] for your own selves that you are responsible: those who go astray can do you no harm if you [yourselves] are on the right path. Unto God you all must return: and then He will make you [truly] understand all that you were doing [in life]”

    [Q.5:105]

    It is for your own selves that you are responsible.
    Those who go astray can do you no harm.
    So why harm those who go astray?

    1. tell me, are you a muslim yourself? if you are, is it OK for those sinners to try to draw the mien of our revered prophet? just like those sinners from Denmark once have? and we do not do something about it?

      you are damn cute, then

  20. LOL really, access, is that the way you speak to other people?
    And you said you are moslem?
    Intelligence my ass, honey 😉

    1. i am also LMFAO now reading you like this and i AM muslim alright.
      look who’s talking here, sweetie? did you just say ‘ass?’

      well, if you do not believe that i am a muslim, you can shove it up your own ass, sweetie

  21. Hi Access, let me ask you question

    Who do you want to protect here? do you want to protect the muslims? if yes, what has the ahmadis, and the small dissidents you called ‘blasphemy’ done to the muslims?any injury?damages?

    Or do you want to protect islam? do you think a big religion with a very significant number of followers, those who even the western fears the most need any protection?or even any defense?

    Or you want to protect God?Allah? Him being the Greatest need no protection, He who has all the power can turn this world into an end, if you’re trying to protect him, you might as well be insulting him

    So tell me access, who do you want to protect by hating the Ahmadis, or by accusing these people of “Blasphemy”?

    1. Hi fuzzie182, answer me first then; do you share the same belief as i do? if you do not, you are wasting my time for all we know.

      prost,

      1. Access,

        Really. It’s people like you who make me wish that I were not a Muslim. If being a good Muslim means being like you, then perhaps I shouldn’t be one at all.

        You are convinced of what you believe. Fine. But none of us can prove or disprove what The Truth is. We simply don’t know everything. And since we don’t know everything, I believe, we should be humble enough to accept that others may believe something else.

      2. Right, Azzura. People like Access give creedence to those who assert that Islam and political modernity are at odds. Witness, for example, his calls for the Indonesian state to abrogate the fundamental rights of its citizens, and to use the majority to oppress and repress a minority. Those are the words of a despot, of an autocrat, not the words of one who will have us believe his religion is the one, transcendental truth. Any religion that holds such abominations must be opposed as a matter of humanism and the dignity of humankind.

      3. you again, what is wrong with living creatures like this clown? he is not a muslim and yet he pictures himself as islam expert.

        like i said “go suck your mommy’s tits, boy”

      4. azzura,

        Really. yes, perhaps you should convert or something for who simply cares?

        let me know should you have, buddy.

  22. what on earth give you right to stop me giving any assumption toward anything including to yourself, hamster-man or Dr. Freud.. but thanks anyway for suggesting me to buy hamster, i am looking forward to your tips about how to nourish it, coz you seem experience with pets.
    Mate seriously, me praise always brilliant thoughts which came from smart brain, but what i got from you is product made by an interchangeable brain-ass.
    i’m telling you Dr Freud to find real human to hang out with instead screw around with those animals (don’t say, you are kind of a pet fetish). Let us know whenever you have found real human to share your life with.. and go read other books or do some travelling so you can see the world isn’t small as your flat arse. 🙂

    1. look, here is the deal, chipmunk.

      you are an atheist, so that you do not believe in God. so, read this and weep: “i will not waste my time again talking to you like this and like i said go buy a hamster should you want to talk to someone.”

  23. and one more thing, azzura.

    why did you have to write this first if you just want to convert? hmmm…let me see, you want my approval, no? you have my blessings, then.

    simply because who gives a damn?

    do not be conspicuous and do not be such a prude, boy; so that, you want the whole world to know that you want to convert.

  24. Here is ‘access access’ logic in this debate:

    1. Are you a Muslim? Yes / No
    ○ No, I do not want to speak to you. I’m right, you’re wrong. Go suck your mommy’s tits or stick a hamster up your ass
    2. Yes. Are you against Ahmadiyah? Yes/No
    ○ No, I do not want to speak to you. I’m right, you’re wrong. Go suck your mommy’s tits or stick a hamster up your ass
    3. Yes. Does Ahmadiyah deserve to be “punished” and be inflicted violence against them? Yes/No
    ○ No, I do not want to speak to you. I’m right, you’re wrong. Go suck your mommy’s tits or stick a hamster up your ass
    4. Yes. But you are against the law, you are against sense and morality, and Islam does not teach violence upon others. It is the goverment’s job to protect each citizens regardles of their religious/ethnic affiliation
    ○ Disagree. Government is not firm that’s why we must take things into our own hands and avenge the sinners on the name of Islam. Ergo, go back to point 3. Debate does not end.
    ○ Agree. Government is not firm and that’s the core problem of this issue. Diversity in Indonesia must be ensured, and every citizen has the right to be treated equally regardless of their religious or ethnic affiliation.

    I think we have enough of this. While people like ‘access access’ like to muddle about these issues, more important issues such as corruption, environmental problems, poverty, lack of healthcare, is still unanswered.

    This goes to prove my point that we should never be ignorant and allow people who spread hatred and blinded belief disrupt our lives. Although people like ‘access access’ is still around, I’m relieved by the fact that there are others (as shown in these comments) who are willing to speak up and fight against such illogical behaviors.

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